Shapiro: Do you feel that my speech could incite violence?
Student: Well...
[audience applause]
Student: Do you feel that a lot of your speech
could incite the same kind of violence?
Shapiro: You heard my speech tonight.
Do you feel that my speech could incite violence?
Student: Well...
[audience applause]
Shapiro: I mean that seriously. That's an honest question.
Student: No, I know. I know you're asking honestly.
I feel that for me, as an individual, it isn't,
but I could see how a lot of your points
I really disagreed with...
I literally have a list of questions I have for you...
Shapiro: And that's fine. That's the good part, right?
Where we disagree and we can have a conversation.
Student: I just was wondering in terms of...
And what I mean by inciting violence
is encouraging the same people
who believe in your transphobic beliefs,
even that homophobia is a sin
based on your religious beliefs,
do you believe that because of what you say,
you can encourage a lot of people to act on those beliefs?
Shapiro: I have a very strong standard
with regard to incitement,
and I'm very consistent about this.
If I'm not telling somebody to commit violence,
I am not inciting them to violence.
I've held the standard for Barack Obama
when he was saying anti-police things and then somebody
went and shot up some police officers in Dallas.
I said, "That's not Barack Obama's fault."
When a Bernie Sanders supporter went
and shot up a congressional baseball game,
I said, "That's not Bernie Sanders' fault
because Bernie Sanders wasn't calling for that."
Political debate requires that you talk to people
and people take your words as what they mean,
not as an excuse to go and do violence.
I have never called for violence, nor would I.
As far as the idea that my words are some sort of attack,
a violent attack, for example,
on folks who are transgender, my view...
Student: I'm not saying they're a violent attack.
Shapiro: I know, but I'm responding to the people
who are not you who might say that, okay?
Student: Okay.
Shapiro: So the idea that I am transphobic, for example.
This is a bizarre kind of attack
in the sense that I don't know
that I've ever exhibited phobia of trans people.
I'm not afraid of trans people.
Student: Well, transphobia is more
along the lines of disagree...
Well, prejudice against the trans community in terms
of calling them mentally ill. Shapiro: So I actually think
that your first characterization was right.
I think that transphobia is really disagreement
with the the basic principle
that the trans community is trying to purvey,
which is that people's sex is malleable.
That people can move from male to female
and that it is my job, objectively,
to now call them the name
they wish to be called, and to teach my children
that men can be women and women can be men.
I fundamentally disagree with that point.
Now, with that said, is everybody in the United States
entitled to the same rights?
Of course, but your right does not extend to forcing me
to call you what you want me to call you.
That's not the way this works.
That violates my freedom of speech.
So, in interpersonal relationships, if I were out to dinner
with a trans person, would I make a point
of noting their proper biological sex?
No, because that would be impolite.
When I'm talking about the general principle of
is a man a woman, or is a woman a man?
The answer is, I will say that a man is a man,
and a woman is a woman, and a he is a he,
and a she is a she.
And if I'm in a public debate with somebody,
I will say the same thing.
[audience applause]
As far...
Student: So I do want to clarify that what I meant...
I wasn't trying to say disagreement, I was relating it
to the same definition of homophobia, which is prejudice,
or I tried to say discrimination against...
Shapiro: Right, so I think that again, homophobia,
there are some people... Student: When it relates to
through the LGBTQ community. Shapiro: There are some people
who actively want to do violence
to people who are gay, right?
I mean, those people are not me
or anybody that I agree with, obviously.
I've never, at any point in my entire career,
ever advocated violence, God forbid,
against anybody in a civilized society.
That's not something that I believe in.
And I think it's evil.
As far as...I think, again, your original definition
of transphobia actually is better applied here as well.
I think it's disagreement with certain principles
that the homosexual community wishes to espouse.
Student: But what I was saying was that's not what I was...
I was, instead of saying disagreement...
Shapiro: I know, and I'm saying...
Student: I was saying discrimination
was what it really means.
Shapiro: And I'm saying that I agree
with your original definition and not your definition.
So the definition that you made...
Student: Well no, I'm not saying it's mine.
It's one that I Googled, that I found.
Shapiro: Right, and I think that definition is wrong.
And I think that the one
that you Freudian slipped was right, is what I'm saying.
Student: So I'm saying based on the institution of...
I don't want to say the institution of Google
because that's an extremely general thing to say,
but in terms of, as soon as you search transphobia,
homophobia, this is what comes up.
Shapiro: Right, and I think...
Student: Do you feel like even though you're disagreeing
with the trans community,
which I believe we all have our own disagreements,
I'm asking, do you feel that the fact
that with your disagreement, you're inherently,
through the institutions
that have provided these definitions,
discriminating against the trans community?
Thus... Shapiro: And I'm saying...
Student: Thus, encouraging other people to follow up?
I know it's a long question. Shapiro: Right, that's fine.
Student: But I had to encapsulate a lot of things.
Shapiro: So here's what I'm saying.
I disagree. Either their definition is wrong
or it's overly broad in its application.
Student: Okay.
Shapiro: So if the idea is that if I say a man is a man
and a woman is a woman is inherently transphobic,
that's not discrimination, that's disagreement.
If they say that's discrimination,
they're overly applying their own label.
Student: Well, I think when you say
they're mentally ill, that gives off...
Shapiro: Well, I have said and I will continue to maintain
that gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder,
whichever DSM you choose to use, is a mental illness.
Student: Mm-hmm.
Shapiro: That is...
[audience applause]
Shapiro: And that, and again...
God forbid that it should be said with any animus
because this is not said with animus.
When people are suffering,
these are clearly folks who are suffering.
When people are suffering,
you shouldn't be saying stuff with animus.
I'm not saying that as a got-you
to people who are transgender.
That point that I'm making is that when a society
begins treating folks who have mental illness
as though they are representing an objective reality,
they are doing no service
to the people who actually suffer from a mental illness.
My grandfather suffered from schizophrenia,
paranoid schizophrenia, he was institutionalized.
If the doctors had said to him, "Nate, you're fine.
We believe that the radio's actually talking to you,"
that is not a service to him.
That would have been terrible for him, right?
They put him in an institution.
They gave him lithium and it helped.
Now I'm not saying there's even a great solution
for folks who have gender identity disorder
or gender dysphoria, because the solutions that I've seen,
including transgender surgery, are not intensely effective
from all the studies that I've seen.
It's a tragic, tragic situation,
but the solution is not to redefine as a society
what sex means along anti-biological lines.
As far as the homophobia point, my own religious belief
about the sinful nature of particular people's behavior
should have no impact on how you act
in a free country or or how you think.
It's a free country. Do what the hell you want.