Hello and welcome to Stumped, your intercontinental hit of news, features,
and debate from the quirky world of cricket. I'm Alison Mitchell back in London after a really
lovely weeks' holiday in France. I managed to do paddle boarding and kayaking and hiking - all the
things I love doing. I'm now preparing for the Cricket Writers' Club lunch, so our media awards
will get presented next week, so quite a lot of work to do around that. The domestic season
has now finished and of course the international season finished last weekend at Lord's with the
women's match; that was a quiet one, wasn't it?! Yes, we might come to that discussion,
but it's Jim Maxwell for the ABC here in Sydney and just as well they're not starting the domestic
competitions in Sydney because, yes it's raining again. This must be the wettest year Sydney's
ever had and it's threatening the beginning of Round two of our premier cricket competition again.
But at least it's sunny in other places where various competitions are under way, and that's a
good sign. So hopefully we'll get a break in the weather. Well, I feel for you, Jim.
Hello. This is Charu Sharma for All India Radio. I'm in Ahmedabad in Gujarat, where it's nice and
warm and dry. I'm here for the 36th edition of the national game, which is sort of like the Indian
Olympics and the opening ceremony today. Cricket wise, of course, there was a fair amount of
criticism for 'let's not talk about what happened at Lord's a short while back,' because I'm sure we
will soon. But for the Indian medium pacers in the men's department, but 9-5 and they had us,
South Africa, on the mat and I suppose the critics have moved away from criticising the Indian medium
pacers for a while because they seemed to have come to the party. But they moved to some other
sphere which I'm sure we'll talk about. It's good to see you Jim and Charu and we will talk about
that final one day international between England and India. But first on Stumped, this week, well
it seems everything touched by the Australian women's team turns to gold. Earlier this year,
the Aussies claimed the first Commonwealth Games gold medal in T20 cricket after beating India by
nine runs in a tense final at Edgbaston. Former Australian spinner Shelly Nitschke was the coach
in an interim capacity then, helping to guide the team to victory. She has now been rewarded with
the head coach role on a permanent basis. Nitschke played over 100 matches for Australia across all
formats and had been interim coach since May, when Matthew Mott departed for England men. And we have
got Shelley with us now on the programme. Shelley welcome to Stumped and congratulations on the job.
You must have felt fairly confident about getting it, did you? Ah, thank you. Yeah. Look, I think I
was obviously in a reasonable position after being in there in the interim role for a few months when
we went through the recruitment process. So, it was nice to find out that that I'd been given the role on a
permanent basis and just looking forward to getting stuck in. Hi Shelley. Jim Maxwell in
Sydney. Nice to be talking to you. Hopefully, the sun is shining up there where you are.
Just looking back during Matthew Mott's seven-year tenure as the coach, the Australian team won two
T20 World Cup titles, three Ashes series and two women's championships before lifting the
coveted World Cup in April this year. How do you manage to keep goal setting when Australia keep
winning everything there is to win and with a leg in the air as it were at the moment.
It's a good question. I think it's about making sure that we're staying pretty grounded,
keep resetting and keep setting ourselves some challenges and keep evolving with the game. We've
obviously lost Rachael Haynes more recently to retirement, which is a big loss for us,
so that presents a challenge and an opportunity for someone to step up. We also know that
teams are coming for us. India pushed us way too hard than we'd like in the Commonwealth Games. So,
we certainly know that those teams are coming for us and closing the gap. I think it's just about
finding ways to stay motivated, keep evolving and really finding that desire to stay on top and stay ahead of the game.
Shelley, Hi. Charu Sharma from India for All India Radio. Congratulations on this
magnificent journey which if you track it back a bit to the 2010 World Cup, for you and the T20 for
Australia and then moving on to South Australia as a coach and then of course the assistant's
role under Matthew Mott until 2018 and later, of course, the Perth Scorchers, as well - all this
experience over so many years. Has it been the key in helping you succeed with the Australian team?
I think all your experience adds up. I think probably, yes, it certainly has helped me,
but I also think that my experience and life experience away from the game of cricket
helps me quite a bit too and being able to, I guess, relate to players and relate to people.
So I think it's not just that sum of the last ten years of cricket experience, there s everything
that I'd done before, outside of that that has probably put me in a position where I'm able to
relate to different people. So, it certainly has helped me in a cricket sense, and in tactics and
conditions and things like that. But I think a more holistic view is taking my life experience
and knowing that that's contributed to where I am as well. Is there anything particular when
you talk about life experience that you think helps you in that regard?
To be honest, I think part of it is when I played, we were still juggling work and life and that with
our cricket career and to be honest, I think that takes your life teaches you a lot of lessons and
you have to find a way to make things work. At the time, it's tough and you're tired. It's a juggling
act and it's this and that, but at the end of the day I think it puts you in a pretty... you learn
a lot along the way as well, and I think that sort of gives you a really good perspective on
where the game sits within the bigger scheme of things. I think it helps to keep yourself
and others around you grounded, which is a big part of why the team's been successful is that culture as well.
You mentioned Rachael Haynes and her retirement and the gap that she leaves. Just
a couple of questions around personnel; first of all, is Ellyse Perry's prospects of forcing her
way back into the T20 side? And also, how Meg Lanning is doing at the moment, because she's
been taking an indefinite leave from the game. Yeah, like I said before, Rach leaves a big hole
for us both on and off the field. For those that know Rach really well will know how much of an
incredible leader she is. I think her performances speak for themselves. We can all see what she does
on the field but it's what she does off the field and the leadership around the group is, is really
difficult. So, that leaves a hole in our team, and whether that's Pez that comes into that T20
team or someone else, I think there's a real opportunity there. We've got a lot of domestic
cricket with the WBBL and opportunities for someone to stick their hand up. So,
there's definitely an opportunity. Whether it's Ellyse or someone else, but I'd be excited to see
moving forward where that finishes up and who really takes that next step.
As for Meg, I think it's just came out recently that she's not playing in the WBBL, so we're sort
of giving her her space at the moment and letting her reassess things and see where she's at.
We don't have any further indication on that at the moment, but I think it's really important
that we give her that space and hopefully she comes back to the game in her own time.
I imagine you would hope that she would be able to lead the team at the T20 World Cup, but the priority
is make herself what she wants to do? Yeah, one hundred percent. I think everyone's being really
respectful of that, which has been great, which is exactly what she needs. She's been a fantastic
leader and player for us over a long period of time and been involved at this level since she
was a teenager. So, I think she just has reached a point where she just needs to take a bit of a
break and I think everyone's really empathetic with that and can fully understand why. So,
yeah, I guess we all want to see Meg back playing the game, but I think about her and what makes her happy.
That's Australia's head coach, Shelley Nitschke. Now then, to the story that grabbed the
headlines and immediately sparked a lively debate on social media. It was at Lord's, barely a week
ago, when the third one day international between England and India's women became remembered for
what happened right at the end. I was there. I was watching from the stands, the climax of what had
been a low scoring game and it was just bubbling up. England were nine down, looking down and out,
but England's Charlie Dean, their number 10, was closing in on a half century and threatening to
win the game in an unlikely final wicket stand. Things had got tense, she got to within 17 runs
of an England win, with one wicket left when the bowler Deepti Sharma ran her out by stopping in
her delivery stride and whipping off the bails at the non-striker's end before she bowled the ball.
Dean was advancing out of her crease as the bowler was about a bowl - what's known as backing up -
and so Dean was out. The laws allow it. It's still seen as a controversial dismissal, though
and still commonly called a Mankad - named after the Indian batter Vinoo Mankad, who was the first
player to affect that type of run out in a Test match in 1947. So, it is perfectly within the laws
of the game, but a lot of people don't believe it is in the spirit of the game and few issues
in cricket divide fans and players so vehemently. So, Jim, Charu, where do you stand on this? Charu,
you go first, cos you know the reaction in India. Alright, let's roll up our sleeves
on this one. For starters, I would like to very quickly on behalf of the Mankad family object to
that because I think the family on many occasions have said, 'please, let's not vilify the family.'
Let's call it a run out. Well, non-strikers run out. I believe there were at least a couple of
incidents before Mankad in cricket where the non-striker was run out by the bowler. So,
it's just one of those unfortunate things where it 's named after somebody whose family is certainly
not very happy at all. So, I'm going to avoid that term. Even recently, the ICC has cemented this law
and they've done it according to me for a reason, because people were taking very unfair advantage
and not staying within the spirit of the game by backing up too much. And even young Charlie Dean,
I feel for her over their tails and everything else, but she was a walking in such a unaware
fashion. She just kept walking on without... 72 times. Did you see that stat, 72 times in her innings.
Correct and even on the one that she was run out and she was completely unaware of what the
bowler was doing, or where the ball was. She was just walking, but no look towards the bowler. So,
there is some element of a lack of innocence there because one is taking a lot of advantage
of her backing up. In cricket now, we hear about the parlance that throw to the
danger end, which is the non-striker's end, because the non-striker will make the crease
anyway because he or she has taken four or five steps and therefore has the advantage. All that
was seen by the ICC and that's why the ICC clamped down on this because there's too much advantage
being taken by one batsman compared to the other. I'm of the old school. Obviously, I'd like to see
a match finish in a more regulation fashion, but I cannot hold it against Deepti at all. I think the skipper had
a hand in it too, but an indication that 'Listen, we're already a little bit fed up of this,' because
we can't have somebody take so much advantage over so long a period in a game.
Jim, I think I know your opinion on it from previous discussions and previous instances.
Let's get a couple of things straight for a start. Cricket has never been a gentleman's or a gentlewoman's game, right.
From the time that it became fashionable as a sport because people gambled on it.
From the time WG Grace put the bails back on after he was given out.
We've always had something unscrupulous around, but for me it's a very bad look. And I would like
to see the warning rather than the bowler do what was done the other day. Mind you,
Jos Buttler was done by Ashwin some time ago. He was miles out of his crease. It
just seemed to me in this case, OK she'd walked out of her ground a little casually, perhaps,
but there was a complete intent from the bowler to do what she was going to do as she came in. That's
what I don't like about it. If someone's traipsing off into the distance, either knock the bails off,
or at least in the spirit of the game - if that still exists - give them a warning and say, 'look out.'
It's a bad look. I understand it's within the laws and it's no longer considered 'unfair plays,'
but is this the way to play the game, particularly when it's in the crunch?
But the one thing you must do is make people at the non-striker's end realise that they're not
allowed for fear of losing their wicket to leave their crease until the ball has been dispatched.
So, maybe more batters will be watching the bowler's arm rather than just cruising off in expectation.
I tell you what, though, one thing about that match between England and
India at Lord's was that the incident at the end completely overshadowed the retirement of
India's legendary fast bowler Jhulan Goswarmi. So, let's give a good bit of time now to paying
tribute to her because she was playing her last game in international cricket after career that
started back in 2002. She retires at the age of 39 as the world's leading wicket taker in
women's one day internationals - 255 in her 204 matches. Charu, how will she be remembered?
Well, in a class of one because she's been there for a very long time, just as Mthali, I
suppose their careers intersected for many, many...well decades and the leader for a lot of
other Indians to take up the concept of the art of medium pace bowling because just like in the men's
arena going back to the late 70's when India were until that point of time very shy of medium pacers
or fast bowlers. Sometimes in Test matches, they used to bowl two or four overs and that's it. The
spinners used to take over. But after Kapil and quite a few others, the medium pacers are coming
out of every street now in India. I think Jhulan, we take that credit for ensuring that there are
many young Indian women who now feel and believe they can be fast bowlers or medium pacers as well.
And we see that happening now. India have a fair number of go to fast bowlers and I have no doubt
in my mind that they will thank Jhulan for leading the way and for showing the way. She, of course,
was an exception because she is a lot taller than most other average Indian girls and she
used that to very good advantage. I don't think we're still anywhere close in terms of speed as
the bowlers with some of the leading women cricket nations, but there's this clamour now there's this
awareness that we too can be medium pacers who are effective and who are dependable.
One final thought, before we say goodbye, on the run out at the non-striker's end, because it did make
me look back at previous incidences and it's only happened four times in men's Test matches. Not in
my lifetime - the last one in a Test was in 1979. But in women's T20, and we talked about this on
Stumped at the time, do you remember the Cameroon bowler who affected four run outs like that in
the space of two overs in a World Cup qualifier against Uganda last year? That was Maeva Douma.
Of course, there was Jos Buttler in the IPL and against Sri Lanka as well. But it just made me
think of Maeva Douma and the conversation that she created when she did that just last year. So,
you'll be able to find that if you listen back on Stumped - we had a chat about that, too. That's
all we have time for on Stumped this week, so I'll say thank you to Jim Maxwell and Charu Sharma
and of course to you for listening and we will see you again next week. Take care. Bye, bye.