- Is Charlotte Mason only for the younger students?
(gentle music)
Welcome to the Simply Charlotte Mason podcast.
I'm Sonya Shafer.
Sometimes we hear people say, well,
I'll do Charlotte Mason with my younger kids,
but it's not rigorous enough for my older ones.
Or they won't say it's not rigorous enough,
they just won't use it for their older ones.
They think it's only for younger children.
We want to address that question today
and joining me is Amber O'Neal Johnston.
Good to have you back, Amber.
- Yes. Thanks for letting me be here.
- Let's talk about this concept of Charlotte Mason
for the younger children, but not for the older children.
- Yes.
This is something I've gotten feedback on so many times.
And as I inch closer and closer,
I have a teenager now and she's been
educated this way from the beginning.
And I get a lot of questions about, "Oh,
you're not going to start, you know,
real school or real lessons with her?"
- Wow.
- Now that she's in middle school
and becoming a teenager, has become a teenager.
And I think that there are a lot
of myths surrounding the rigor
or the intensity of a Charlotte Mason education.
And that's something that
I wish to talk to people about more.
- Yes.
Now those of us who have studied Charlotte Mason,
it blows our minds what she required of the older students.
- Yes.
- So if you're studying it,
you don't have that misconception.
- No.
- I mean, she was asking them, I was just looking over some
of the exam questions that they had for the 12 year olds,
and it was
draw a map of this particular area and describe it.
And it had exam questions
in three different languages plus Latin.
That would be the fourth language.
And the weren't easy exam questions either.
It's just astounding to me what the older children studied.
- I agree.
And I think it's really telling that my children
love exam week.
And so, despite the kind of difficult nature of some
of the questions, because it gives them an opportunity to
show what they know,
rather than kind of, "Gotcha,
that one thing you don't remember."
- Exactly.
- It's not giving you a chance to tell me
all that you do know and remember.
I think there's just a sense of excitement
that the students have to share.
So it's not that exam week is easy and therefore
this is great for little kids, but not older students,
no, in fact there's nothing to hide behind.
There are no multiple choice questions.
There's nothing you can guess.
You are going to know
and be able to share and tell, or you won't know.
- And you can't cram for it.
- No, you can't cram for it.
You can't study for it. - No way.
- And so I think that if anything, this is more difficult
than what most of us grew up with
or what we're accustomed to.
But I think that the demeanor of the students
that are being educated with Charlotte Mason's philosophy,
can sometimes lead us to believe that they aren't engaging
in deep learning.
Sometimes I look at it and say it's because they're happy.
There's a level of peace as they go about their studies.
They're typically engaged, highly engaged,
a lot of discussions, beautiful writing.
And--
- That doesn't look like my high school experience.
- No!
And I think about myself
and it's like stacked up with all these AP classes,
as many extracurricular activities
as you could possibly fit, studying up all night,
cramming and studying, trying to get as many things to fit
into your day as possible.
Again, I felt like a lot of like white knuckle moments.
- Yes.
- And, you know, kind of nodding off and feeling exhausted,
but that I had to do all the things all the time
and do them really well.
And so if that's what we're looking for
from our Charlotte Mason teens, we're not going to see that.
And I think that sometimes that's what we are mistaking,
that frantic-ness the difficult-ness, the difficulty,
the stressfulness, and we are calling that rigor.
And we'd like to see that in a Charlotte Mason education.
And I have to sit back and think
do I really want to see that?
And no, I don't.
That's not the life that I wish for my children,
but that doesn't mean
that they aren't engaging deeply.
The students in my home,
my children, they're already reading material far
beyond things that I engaged with
even through college and able to discuss things.
And because I did cram, I wasn't,
I'm not able to discuss much of what I studied or learned.
- What's interesting is when we're talking about stress
and pressure and what that looks like, so many studies
have been done that when the brain gets under stress,
it tends to shut down. - Yes.
- Rather than actually work the way it's supposed to.
So of course, yeah, we are not going to
remember those things and be able to discuss them freely.
The difference between information and knowledge.
- Sure.
- Being able to work with knowledge is being able to work
with that material with freedom.
To condense it, to illustrate it, to rephrase it.
And that's what we want for our children.
So we really do need to take that pressure off.
They're in a better place without the pressure
because their brains are going to work more freely.
- And speaking of brains working freely,
I think that that is part of
what we see when we talk about
some of the delight in this type of a education,
they are doing lots of different things with their brains.
So they're not just going from one class
to the next class, to the next class,
with us asking them to exhibit the same skills and
the same level of attention to the same type of material.
Like whether it be a lecture or just write
and then go write and then go write some more.
But they are singing folk songs
and hymns and reciting poetry and Bible verses
and creating art, studying art, listening to music.
And those enrichments are an important part
of their education.
And so when you are doing math
and you're giving your full attention to that
and then you're singing a hymn
and then you are studying a historical time period
in historical fiction or a biography
and then using watercolors and painting,
These are things that make your day flow
and your week flow that may appear like, "Oh,
they're not really working all that hard."
But I think that we're working very effectively
is what we're doing.
- Yeah, working smart.
- Yes. Yes.
- Yeah. So one of the misconceptions that people,
where they might get the misconception
that CM is not rigorous is from the low stress level.
- Yes. - Let's put it that way,
that our children have.
And then let's talk about those enrichments as well.
I think sometimes when people who have not
studied Charlotte Mason very deeply, when they think of CM,
that's pretty much all they think about is the enrichments.
- Yes.
- So yes, we're still giving those to our children.
So maybe they're just zeroing in on that aspect of it.
- And I think that could very well be.
And, and perhaps that's fair because I know
as a Charlotte Mason mom, when I'm with my other CM mom
friends, we do spend a lot of our time talking
about enrichments.
That's what we share about on social media,
and we chat about and write about, and I think that a part
of it is one, because they are delightful and they
bring a lot of joy to us, as well as our children.
But I also think it's because those are the things that are
part of what make this education so different
than what we all experienced.
So we have a higher learning curve, a lot of times,
with incorporating those things and spreading the feast,
as we always like to talk about.
And so we talk about the things that are getting a lot
of our attention, but that doesn't mean that the core
academic subjects that people consider to be
traditional, more traditional, aren't being done.
They absolutely are.
We just don't, probably just, don't talk about them--
- We don't diffuse about algebra.
- Exactly.
- It's like, that's a taken for granted almost.
- It's a given.
- Yeah, in our heads.
Just because, as you said, the enrichments are new to us.
So that's what we tend to discuss more like, "Hey,
which artist are you doing?
And which composer are you happy with now?"
And things like that.
That is what tends to bubble to the top.
- Yes. And I think there's a level of creativity
around the enrichments too.
So we are kind of swapping notes and wondering "Where
have you heard this and how have you come to this?"
And so I think that I can see why some people may think
that that's what they do.
They run and frolic in creeks and read poetry all day.
And--
- If that's all we did, it would not be rigorous.
- No, it wouldn't. - Absolutely.
- And so I think that, that's why we're here talking
about this today to kind of dispel that myth
that we are doing so much more than that.
And that for older students, if anything,
Charlotte Mason's kind of programs were very progressive.
So, at each level the child got exactly what they needed
for where they were at that time.
And it was such a good match. Right?
So you don't see the tension
and the stress of like overreaching,
or the boredom of not being kind of fulfilled with
good ideas and thoughts
and things to interact with.
And so with that progression, it continues
on through middle school and into the high school years.
And it never stops.
And I actually am impressed.
I used to feel intimidated,
but now that I have older students,
rather than feel intimidated about what they're working on
I'm impressed and really enjoy engaging
with them on some of these pursuits and their readings.
- When we first started out with CM, I don't know about you,
but when I thought of high school, it was like, whoa.
But as you said, it is so progressive,
and we are learning along with our children,
that when you get to middle school, it's like, "Oh,
well we're just doing one more step from where we've been
and this isn't so bad, we'll just keep going."
And then you get to high school,
and it's like, "Oh, well it's just one more step."
- Yes.
- So it's not intimidating
to us as we go along with our children.
- No, it's true.
And you're ready for it.
Your children are ready and you're ready.
It's almost, you tend to hunger
for that next step, that next revelation of,
what will this next year reveal to us
in terms of what we'll be learning and talking about.
And it's exciting.
And I think there's a role in that too.
I think that in our society, we're not necessarily used
to people speaking so enthusiastically
about education and lessons.
And we do tend to be enthusiastic
and excited about what we're learning.
And that's a very positive thing,
but I think sometimes it can scare people,
that if they are speaking this positively
and this enthusiastically, it must be because it's easy.
And I think that that is
an area where we could all grow
as we shift our understanding
that a life full of ideas is exciting.
And sometimes being stretched feels good.
- Yes. As long as they're not stretched, like,
on a rack, you know?
- Yes, yes.
- And, and that's what,
when we talk about it's just the next step.
It can, it can be misinterpreted
that we are saying we're taking baby steps.
And so we never get past this level, you know?
So what we're calling high school really isn't that hard
because we've just been taking these little baby steps.
You see what I'm saying?
- Yes. Oh yes.
- Where, when we talk about taking the next step,
it is, as you said,
challenging and fulfilling at the same time
because it is causing us to grow
in so many different areas, and stretch as you said.
- And I think the proof is in the pudding too.
So anyone that's been, had the pleasure of being
at a conference perhaps, or somewhere where
there's a gathering of Charlotte Mason teens,
you can just sit back and watch and listen.
And I think any fear that you may have will just
kind of dissipate.
And I know that happened to me early on.
And I was at an event and the teens had tables set
up where they were sharing different things
they were working on throughout this school year.
And it was varied.
Some of them were artistic pursuits.
Some of them had laptops open showing the businesses
that they had created.
And some had collections of things that they
were pulling arrowheads and different things that they
were collecting.
And I was fascinated.
I was fascinated by the varied degree of passions
that the children have developed.
I was fascinated by the degree of just how
good everything was.
And I was thinking "My goodness, these are young people.
But they are presenting with their passions
and the things that they've studied deeply and have engaged
with, they are presenting them like you would
expect a professional to present, in that way."
So I think that that's--
- That might be because they've been narrating for--
- It could be, and it worked.
But I think that was the single most, that let me relax.
I felt like my sigh, my shoulders go down
because I got a glimpse of the future.
And I said, "Okay, I see where this is headed.
And it looks so different than anything that,
that I've ever seen before."
That there's a, it's understandable
that there could be some fear
and perhaps that's another argument for community.
Being able to walk this journey
with other people at different stages so
that we can kind of be there for each other to say
"It's okay," and give you a glimpse of what's coming next.
- As you said, it looks different.
And with, that might be also what can contributes
to a misconception is we don't have all
of the multiple choice tests.
We don't have all of the textbooks.
We don't have the backpack.
- Yes. - Whatever it is.
But instead we have, we're looking at pictures.
We're reciting poetry.
- Yes.
- So talk a little bit
about how we can encourage
non-Charlotte Mason people,
or those who are new to Charlotte Mason
and have this idea of, "Well,
that's okay for the little kids," but
how can, aside from saying, "Here, come sit in my home.
and listen to my older kid."
We don't want to put our kids on the spot.
Right?
- That never goes well.
- They don't appreciate that at all.
So what are some ways that we might be able to
come alongside in community and encourage the younger moms,
encourage the not-as-familiar-with-Charlotte Mason
moms that as you said, "It's going to be okay.
It's all going to, even though it looks different."
- I think one thing of course, and I know a lot
of new moms get tired of hearing us say this,
but studying the volumes will do wonders because that is
where you really get a vision for the full progression.
And the further on you get, you may see less people,
you may hear from less people out in the public,
on social media, or wherever you're listening.
You'll hear from a lot of people with little kids
and maybe a little bit less and a little bit less,
that doesn't necessarily mean they're not there.
But I find that sometimes they have pulled back
a little bit necessarily from being out
in the center and talking about it all the time.
But in the volumes, you can see just how these teens
are spending their time.
And you see this progressive independence.
That's another thing, younger years,
some people feel like Charlotte Mason,
the mom is so intense that she's right there on every move.
And you are, you're building this foundation
but the teens become very independent.
- Self-education is the goal.
- Yes. And that, and you see that.
Almost to perfection, and you see it,
what she talks about and how she describes in her volumes.
So I think reading the volumes is number one.
I think joining a group is very, very helpful because
if you're just out here trying to make all these connections
on your own, sometimes that can be very difficult.
But in a group you'll see the seasons
of education from other families.
And the beautiful thing about it is
that as you're learning from the families around you
there's someone else watching you.
And even if you think you have nothing to give,
you're brand new,
there is someone who can learn from where your child is
or where you are, and maybe even just learn
from your questions that they hadn't thought to ask.
So I think those are a couple of things.
And I think the last one would be
don't skip the enrichments.
So they're in that fear.
Sometimes I see people, you know, kind of clamping
down and they're like, "Okay, I have to really do this.
And we have to do all the real stuff.
And we're just only going to do math, history,
science, and grammar."
- Just get ready for the ACT or the SAT.
- Yes, and I want to really discourage that.
And not only for the sanctity
of the Charlotte Mason education,
but that she didn't make any of this up just to be flowery
or just to be impressive or sound good.
It all really does work together.
And what I see, I see the elements of the poetry playing out
in the written narration that are also bringing in grammar.
I see the stories from the historical fiction
interacting with the geography that they're talking
about and really understanding where this time and place,
what was happening in this time and place,
and geography models being informed
by biographies that they've read.
And it's like a web.
And so as hard as it may be,
because it is so different than what most of us had,
I would encourage all moms to give every bit of it
a try and just allow it, your child to marinate.
You might not see all of this come together right away.
But as they get older, you sit back,
and you listen to them and you read what they're writing,
and you're like, "Oh, this is it.
Now I get it."
- Yes. Good word.
Good word.
Thank you. - You're welcome.
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I'll see you next time.
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